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FFT: Bonus Essays--Violence in Religion Pt. II [SPORKERS: ZELDAQUEEN & GEHAYI] - The Sporkings of Das Mervin and Company

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February 16th, 2017


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gehayi
10:22 pm - FFT: Bonus Essays--Violence in Religion Pt. II [SPORKERS: ZELDAQUEEN & GEHAYI]
Violence in Religion Part I | Table of Contents | Violence in Religion Part III





Violence in Religion (June/July 2008)


Part II


Christianity became even more patristic than its Judaic forerunner, spending its first eight centuries forcing conversions by the sword or else exterminating Europe's heathen agriculturalists (the Latin word for a farmer was pagan).

ZeldaQueen: Again I say, Christianity was initially viewed as a small cult that was treated with considerable suspicion. Like Gehayi said, before Judaism, the concept of worshipping just one deity was really not a familiar one. On the other hand, the concept of a deity intermingling with humans and having a child by them would have been familiar to polytheists like those who worshipped the Greek pantheon, but would have been unheard of to Jews.

Gehayi: Given the Egyptian and the Babylonian diasporas and the Roman conquest of Judea, I'm guessing that Jewish people were, over time, exposed to the concept of demigods, even if it wasn't part of their religion.

Also, "paganus" is Roman soldier slang for a rustic person. Nowadays maybe we'd say "bumpkin" or "yokel." The connotation of "fool" was there from the beginning. My apologies to pagans.



(Pictured: Scene from the peasant uprising in Dragon Age: Origins.)

Christians started applying the slang word to non-Christians because to them, not being Christian was the most foolish thing they could imagine. And eventually, the sneering commentary seeped out and the word simply meant "person who does not worship the Christian God." It took some time before it stopped applying to all non-Christian religions, in fact...as I'm sure Walker recalls. I can recall "Muslim" and "pagan" being synonymous when I was a child, for example, and Walker has thirty-two years on me.

After 385 C.E., the church rigorously enforced the death penalty for nonbelievers.

ZeldaQueen: This is making me imagine that scene in The Life of Brian, "Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each."



Gehayi: I don't know what she's referring to.

ZeldaQueen: Honestly, I don't think she's referring to anything specific so much as she imagines that monotheistic people in ancient times were barbarians who rode around, cutting off heads for no reason. I might also add that the concept of "An Eye For An Eye" was implemented to prevent revenge from going beyond what was reasonable (which is the exact opposite of what Walker's been saying) and that the Bible urges Christians to go with forgiveness.

Gehayi: *double-checks* Oh, wait. Walker gave the wrong date, which threw me off. She's talking about the Theodosius, who took the throne after Emperor Constantine. The Edict of Theodosius, which was issued on February 27, 380 (or possibly 381), commanded everyone to be a Christian—Theodosius's kind of Christian. And this led to many bloody persecutions. It was an asshole move all around.



(Pictured: Saint Ambrose barring Theodosius I from Milan Cathedral [1619-1620] by Anthony Van Dyck.)

However, the Church didn't do this. An emperor did. Big difference, I'd say.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY HISTORY: 880 (for the incorrect date and incorrect origin of the edict)

New canon laws also took away women's property rights, subjected children to the absolute rule of fathers with the power of life and death, encouraged frequent beatings of offspring and wives through exhortations from the pulpit, and insisted on the inherent sinfulness of sexual activities, including even marital relations.

ZeldaQueen: *sighs* Yes, that's why Jesus prevented a mob from killing a prostitute, did not mind an adulteress washing His feet, had female followers as well as male followers, and, in fact, spoke to one of said women first after being resurrected. That's why men and women were both sentenced to punishment for adultery, instead of just the woman.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 230

Also, what Walker fails to take into account is that a lot of Christian laws were pretty progressive compared to other laws, back then. Take, for example, the differences between Christian divorce laws at the time and Roman divorce laws. As noted here...

"Since children were in the potestas of the father there were fewer custody suits following divorce in Ancient Rome than today. A vindictive man could ensure an ex-wife never saw her children again, and this possibility may well have persuaded some women to remain in an unhappy marriage. If the separation were amicable enough, parents might make private arrangements whereby children, particularly the young ones, stayed with their mother, but if the father wanted them he almost always won, and, of course, wherever the children lived, he remained financially responsible.

[...]

The first major change came with the Augustan Marriage Laws. A husband was required to divorce an adulterous wife or face charges of pimping, and the financial penalty against her was increased to half of her dowry and a third of any other property she possessed. On top of that she was then exiled to an island. [5] We have no way of knowing how well this law was enforced but there was no change in the ability of either partner to get out of a marriage that had not been tainted by adultery.



(Pictured: Divorce in Ancient Rome--lithograph by Granger.)

By the Third Century many in Rome were having serious reservations about the ease with which people could get out of a marriage. Some were concerned about the impact divorce was having on children, but others simply felt that society had a vested interest in preserving existing relationships and objected to the idea that a husband or wife could break up a marriage when there was no compelling reason. Late in his reign, 331, Constantine issued an edict imposing serious penalties on unilateral divorce except in certain circumstances. If a woman divorced her husband without proving him to be "a murderer, a preparer of poison, or a disturber of tombs" she was to lose her entire dowry and be deported to an island. Similarly if a man divorced his wife without proving she was an "adulteress, a preparer of poison or a go-between," he had to return her dowry. If he should remarry, his ex-wife was allowed to come into his home and seize his new wife's dowry. Note that Constantine's law imposed penalties but it did not invalidate the divorce. The new law did not affect divorces that were agreeable to both partners. [6]"

Then, we have Matthew 19:3-9 ESV…

"And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.""

Was ancient Christianity a paradise for women in terms of divorce? No. But it was still considerably better than Roman laws, if only because the point was that husbands should care for their wives. In a time when divorce laws could allow men to discard their wives easily, Jesus's apostles were saying that men who tried to leave their wives for any reasons other than serious shit were assholes. Remember, this was a time when a woman abandoned by her husband didn't really have much she could do for herself.

Gehayi: *applauds*

Also? I don't see how canon laws, new or old, could have encouraged frequent wife beatings and child abuse from the pulpit. I can see priests and monks doing this. I can't see the laws themselves preaching. Yes, yes, it's a figure of speech called metonymy; she's using "canon laws," which are a small aspect of Christianity, to represent ALL Christianity.



But it still sounds goofy, because much of the speech speaks strictly about what the laws actually did, not what they figuratively did.

And surely such awful sermons are the fault of the people who preached them and not necessarily representative of religion as a whole?

ZeldaQueen: Walker doesn't seem to get that point, just like she doesn't seem to get that the sweaty Bible-thumping stereotypes she seems to be picturing really might not be the most accurate portrayals of the teachings of Christ. You know, like how she seems to think that neopagans and Wiccans aren't good representatives of the real pagans of old. *COUGH*



St. Jerome said a Christian must "regard everything as poison which bears within it the seed of sensual pleasure."

Gehayi: That line is from St. Jerome's letter to the widow Furia, otherwise known as Letter 54, and the way Walker has constructed that sentence is so misleading as to be an outright lie. Here are passages 9 and 10:

"I do not of course condemn food which God created to be enjoyed with thanksgiving, but I seek to remove from youths and girls what are incentives to sensual pleasure. Neither the fiery Etna nor the country of Vulcan, nor Vesuvius, nor Olympus, burns with such violent heat as the youthful marrow of those who are flushed with wine and filled with food..Physicians and others who have written on the nature of the human body, and particularly Galen in his books entitled On matters of health, say that the bodies of boys and of young men and of full grown men and women glow with an interior heat and consequently that for persons of these ages all food is injurious which tends to promote this heat: while on the other hand it is highly conducive to health in eating and in drinking to take things cold and cooling. Contrariwise they tell us that warm food and old wine are good for the old who suffer from humours and from chilliness…:

10. In the first place then, till you have passed the years of early womanhood, take only water to drink, for this is by nature of all drinks the most cooling. This, if your stomach is strong enough to bear it; but if your digestion is weak, hear what the apostle says to Timothy: use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. Then as regards your food you must avoid all heating dishes. I do not speak of flesh dishes only (although of these the chosen vessel declares his mind thus: it is good neither to eat flesh nor to drink wine) but of vegetables as well. Everything provocative or indigestible is to be refused. Be assured that nothing is so good for young Christians as the eating of herbs. Accordingly in another place he says: another who is weak eats herbs. Thus the heat of the body must be tempered with cold food… As for you, my daughter, I would rather wound your modesty than endanger my case by understatement. Regard everything as poison which bears within it the seeds of sensual pleasure. A meagre diet which leaves the appetite always unsatisfied is to be preferred to fasts three days long. It is much better to take a little every day than some days to abstain wholly and on others to surfeit oneself.


In other words, Jerome wasn't saying that Christians had to regard the immediate world as poisonous if it pertained to sex. He was giving advice to a young widow on proper diet—and on what foods would NOT act as aphrodisiacs.



INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 910 (three counts: misleading statement; statement taken out of context to create false impression; quotation with no source provided)

St. Augustine maintained that original sin is transmitted through all generations by means of sex,



(Pictured: Fresco of Saint Augustine of Hippo.)

Gehayi: Well...sort of? He believed that original sin is transmitted through what he called "hurtful desire"—basically, desire that was not subject to human will. And do you know why? Because original sin is, according to Christian dogma, inborn. Children are born with original sin. Now "original sin" has been interpreted in many ways, but a common view is that it is a tendency to do things that are wrong because we want to. St. Augustine believed that the nature of humanity was altered at the time of Adam's Fall, giving us all this tendency. And in St. Augustine's day, there was no way for a generation to be produced except through sex. If you have sex and produce a generation, you have a generation of people who were born with original sin. Under Christian doctrine, there's no way to separate the two!

ZeldaQueen: Although it's worth pointing out that Mary was considered exceptional because she was born without sin, despite being conceived and born normally.

Gehayi: But she is the exception. And the Immaculate Conception is a fairly recent doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church—it was batted around for about six hundred years before it became official in 1854. In the Eastern Orthodox faith, though, people apparently had the idea since the fourth century.

ZeldaQueen: True. *pause* Also, can we pause and laugh about how Walker just suggested that St. Augustine apparently thinks original sin is an STD?

Gehayi: Well, he really DID think that. But the way Walker put it is funnier.

and the handbooks of the Inquisition

Gehayi: Which, as I've mentioned, didn't EXIST.

ZeldaQueen: NO ONE EXPECTS THE HANDBOOKS OF THE INQUISITION!

explained that the devil governs every sexual act "because of its natural nastiness."3

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 134

ZeldaQueen: Are we sure that wasn't scribbled in by Phillip J. Fry during some time travel shenanigans?



Gehayi: *checks the citation* Quoting yourself again, I see, Walker. That doesn't make what you're saying any truer.

ZeldaQueen: "I said it, so it really happened!"

Gehayi: Also, the fragment is from a passage in the Malleus Maleficarum in which Kramer speaks of infirmities—such as impotence—being visited on the human body because of incontinence. Now to us, that means lack of bladder control, but Kramer was talking about lack of sexual or emotional control as a sin. Sinning through lack of control leads to infirmity, caused by the Devil because, well, Kramer was an old fart who really did say that "God allows the devil more power over that act than over other human acts, because of its natural nastiness, and because by it the first sin was handed down to posterity."

But if you leave the Devil out of it, and if you think about that in terms of, say, sexually transmitted diseases like syphilis or gonorrhea…that's not a bad observation. Someone who is having sex with the entire world and isn't being careful might very well get sick.

ZeldaQueen: Even if you leave the Devil in, it sounds like a warning on moderation and self-restraint.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 950 (four counts: quoting herself; not providing an original source, either in The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets or in this essay; and the quotation fragment is extraordinarily misleading)

The innocent sensuality of children was to be severely repressed with various physical torments,

ZeldaQueen: Child abuse is obviously horrible, but talking about the "innocent sensuality of children" is so saccharine, it makes me want to vomit.

Gehayi: *grimaces* Dear God, I hate that attitude. It sounds so...pro-pedophilia. It's creepy.

ZeldaQueen: *darkly* But that's a rant for Amazon.

according to church fathers like St. John Chrysostom, who also advised terrifying them with stories of child-devouring demons, to keep them still "when they want food or play or anything else unreasonable."

Gehayi: You're misquoting, Walker. John Chrysostom was speaking of a Libyan myth—which he called a myth, by the way—about monsters that were half-women and half-serpent who used their beauty to lure men closer with lust so that the monsters could poison, kill and eat them. Then he says:

Now this myth, which has not been invented for a child's benefit to make it less rash and ungovernable, but for those whose folly is greater and more complete, may perhaps, now that we have brought it into this context, be able to show adequately the character of the passions, that they are irrational and brutish and that, by holding out the enticement of some pleasure, they win over the foolish by guile and witchery and bring them to a most sad and pitiable end. These things we should always keep before our eyes to deter us — even as those terrifying images deter children when they want food or play or anything else unseasonably — whenever we are in love with luxury, or money, or sensual indulgence, or fame, or any other pleasure, lest, coming too near to these unscrupulous passions, we be seized by them for the most shameful destruction and ruin conceivable.

"Unseasonably." As in, the kids want to eat or play when it's time to do something else, like chores or homework. Not "unreasonable."

NAME'S WORD'S NOT THE SAME: 132

And he wasn't advocating abusing children. He was advising adults to remember that loving fleeting pleasures and giving in to what you want can lead to destruction. WHICH IS TRUE!

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 980 (three counts: an unsourced fragment; an alteration of word to change the meaning of the fragment; and a direct lie about abuse)

ZeldaQueen: You know, Christians weren't the first people to tell kids scary stories to get them to behave. You can make a drinking game out of myths and fairy tales and urban legends meant to scare kids into not doing life-threateningly stupid stuff. When I was a kid, my parents got my brother and I to brush our teeth every night by telling us there was a monster that would steal our teeth. It eventually became a sort of in-joke in the family. That's not even touching on stories my uncle told (among other things, that there was a monster in the toilet that'd bite your ass when you used it).

And heck, plenty of kids love stories about monsters! That's why there are so many monster movies and books, even directed at children! In fact, in some ways, kids can handle horror a lot better than adults. Case in point, just look at half of the Disney villains.



A new holiday was devised, called Childermass, or Holy Innocents Day, when all children were to be whipped to make them remember the story of King Herod.4

Gehayi: Ah, DeMeo. Back again, I see.

ZeldaQueen: A holiday devoted to whipping children? This is seriously starting to sound like a parody.

Gehayi: The Feast of the Holy Innocents was...odd. In a lot of locations, it was what's known as a festival of inversion—children acting as teachers or priests. Boy bishops, appointed just for that day, were very common. It was considered an unlucky day—not a good day to start anything new, like a wedding, the construction of a building, or a coronation. I suppose that the idea was that anything new beginning on that day would inevitably be cut short all too soon.

And in Spain—and possibly other areas heavily influenced by Spain, I don't know—Holy Innocents Day is a day of pranks and mock battles. The BBC covered one of those mock battles in 2010.

Whether children were beaten on that day, I don't know. I found a fair number of assertions to that effect, mostly in New Age literature...but no original or period sources confirming it.

All in all, the actual celebrations sound a bit goofy—not like a day of abuse or mourning at all.



(Pictured: Children dressed as "August old men", characters from Salvadorian legends, participate in a traditional procession celebrating Holy Innocents Children's Day at Antiguo Cuscatlan, 3 km (2 miles) east of San Salvador on December 28, 2009. Photo by Xinhua/Reuters.)



(Pictured: Revellers in fancy dress walk toward the battle of Enfarinats on December 28, 2012 in Ibi, Spain. Photo by David Ramos/Getty.)

ZeldaQueen: *snrk* So much for Walker's assertion that it was the prehistoric matriarchy that held merriment and humor in such high value.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 231

In view of the contrasting attitudes of matrist societies toward children and sexuality, it is no surprise to read the disapproving remarks of Father Bourien, a missionary to the Malay Peninsula, where, he said, "a long sojourn among erratic tribes has taught me that from among carnal sins they only exclude one, that is, rape."5

ZeldaQueen: Kindly tone down the condescending a few notches.

Gehayi: She's quoting Robert Briffault again. Remember? The guy she quoted so much in the witches speech?

ZeldaQueen: Ho boy, yes.

Gehayi: Also, what Father Bourien is talking about is NOT falling for the idea that cultures described as primitive are better, purer or more innocent.

Certain writers, from not having carefully studied these savage tribes whose customs they have desired to describe, picture them to us as having preserved their primitive innocence intact; and there are even those who state that they have never remarked, among the tribes which they have visited, any indication of sin.

Bourien goes on to say that this is incorrect:

Divorce is usual among them, and allowed by law; they frequently marry without previously knowing one another, and live together without loving. Is it then astonishing that they part without regret, and that divorce is frequent among them? It is nothing rare to meet individuals who have married forty or fifty different times. According to their customs, divorce, to be legitimate, must be by the consent of both parties; if the divorce is provoked by the husband he is bound by usage to return the woman to the hands of her family, and to pay an indemnity [sic] to her nearest relations : then he goes away for a time, at the end of which he returns to seek her, lives with her again as if nothing had happened, and then he quits her for good, telling her she is free to contract a new marriage.

Interesting that the two things he really seems to disapprove of are the casual and often unloving marriages and the equally casual divorces. Oh, and well done being misleading again, Walker.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 1,000 (does not provide original source, only a secondary source about the original one, and the actual quotation pertains to NOT thinking of low-tech societies as innocent or sinless)

[Bourien] was disinclined to notice the prevalence of this particular sin in his own culture; but the many strictures against natural sexual expressions led to cruelty in this regard, as in many others, among Christian believers.

ZeldaQueen: Did...Walker seriously just suggest that rape can be blamed on sexual repression?!

Gehayi: No, I think she said it outright.



During Europe's many wars, crusades, and persecutions, as Susan Brownmiller demonstrated in her book, Against Our Will, rape was considered a rightful reward of the warrior. Old Testament soldiers were told by their god to seize the young daughters of their slain enemies and make them into sex slaves (concubines); see Numbers 16, 21, and 31 in particular. Medieval clergymen claimed a similar privilege.

"The Inquisition kept prison harems of young women, who were incarcerated purely because of their good looks; they were subject to repeated prison-rape by inquisitors and other strangers with connections to the Holy See, who threatened them with grotesque tortures if they failed to submit. . . . The Christian Church also engaged in temple prostitution, and kept brothels of young girls who would service only Christian men. The girls were required to say prayers, however. Church coffers overflowed with monies from brothel and 'sin rent' payments, which were allowed in lieu of more painful forms of penitence."6


CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 142

Gehayi: DeMeo...for the fourth time. And, as usual, he is spouting bullshit. This just happens to be anti-Catholic bullshit. While there have been occasional Popes who frequented brothels, the Borgias were not typical. And frankly, while I have seen these claims before, most of them show up in broadsheets, early Gothic novels, and seventeenth-century porn. I wouldn't call any of those sources informed or scholarly. Their purpose was to titillate, to entertain, and, above all, to sell scandal to a public that really, really wanted to read about sex AND to feel virtuous about it.

YOUR VALUES DISSONANCE IS SHOWING: 327

ZeldaQueen: Oh, hang on. Walker wants to discuss temple prostitution, does she? Well, remember Mesopotamia, which she lauded as a Mother Goddess haven? Well, they totally had temple prostitutes. Know how I know? Because the very first tablet of The Epic of Gilgamesh— something often considered one of the oldest surviving works of literature—has the wild man Enkidu seduced by a temple prostitute named Shamhat...who, I might add, was portrayed positively.



(Pictured: Shamat kissing the wild man Enkidu, from the picture book Gilgamesh the King by Ludmila Zeman.)

At the end of the tale, a dying Enkidu was rebuked by a god for cursing Shamhat, so Enkidu took it back and blessed her.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 232

You see, temple prostitution wasn't some sinister thing where evil priests kept poor, teary-eyed women locked up in the name of hypocrisy. It was a part of worship services. And yes, the values dissonance of this was poked fun at Lit Brick.



DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 233

Gehayi: I've heard that there were male temple prostitutes as well, and that that's where a lot of the Biblical prohibitions against homosexuality come from. It wasn't just having sex; it was worshipping sexually, and worshipping other gods never goes over well in the Bible. It's a context that we don't even think about.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 235

ZeldaQueen: Oh, and this is hilarious. Remember how we laughed about Walker having her Salome knock-off do the Dance of the Seven Veils, apparently not knowing the implications of that? Well, guess which Mesopotamian goddess's temples heavily engaged in temple prostitution as well? So much for no prostitution occurring under the watch of the Mother Goddess.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 236

In such ways, sex was poisoned by patristic inequality between men and women, within a church whose founders called all women "daughters of Satan," "sacks of dung," "insatiable beasts," "unworthy of life," "imperfect animals," and many similar epithets.7

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY MISOGYNY: 146

Gehayi: Walker is quoting herself again...and badly. I cannot determine from the above statement whether Walker is talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, or one of the numerous Protestant ones--and if she is talking about a Protestant church, which sect. Nor is there any clue as to what founders she's citing, or the sources of these alleged quotes.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 1,090 (quoting herself; quoting herself badly; unclear which Church is referred to; unclear which sect is referred to; unclear which founders she means; five possible sources, all unknown)

ZeldaQueen: "Churches"? "Sects"? Gehayi, you talk like Christianity isn't one amorphous blob of misogynistic beliefs that everyone involved gleefully perpetuates! I mean, really now! If it's one thing history's taught us, it's that all Christians are in complete agreement on their canon and history and sacred texts and have never had differing opinions on any matters!

Gehayi: Right, right. There have been no schisms, no heresies, no disputes over dogma. And the Protestant Reformation never happened, either.

I also checked The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, pages 921-922—which is part of the section on sexism. The phrase "daughters of Satan" does not appear on either page or anywhere in the book. Neither does the word "sacks," much less the phrase "sacks of dung." Nor does the phrase "unworthy of life." Nor does the phrase "imperfect animals"; Walker appears to be misquoting Thomas Aquinas, who viewed women as imperfect males. There is an unsourced quotation on page 921 that claims "[o]ther theologians said woman was 'the confusion of man, an insatiable beast, a continuous anxiety, an incessant warfare, a daily ruin,'" but the precise phrase "insatiable beasts" appears nowhere in Walker's Encyclopedia.

Oh, and the "confusion of man" quote appears, word for word, on page 211of historian Barbara W. Tuchman's work A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century, where Tuchman identifies the writer of those words as Vincent de Beauvais, a thirteenth-century Dominican friar who was best known for writing THE encyclopedia of the Middle Ages. He was not a theologian. Basically, he created the medieval version of Wikipedia.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 1,180



When women are so put down as to be forbidden any part in defining the moral code, it seems that violence soon becomes institutionalized. Christian nations were intensely warlike, and during their periods of colonization massacred native populations on all continents, in order to teach the heathen to love the correct god.

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 150

Gehayi: While I admit that Christian nations have colonized pretty much everywhere and have massacred natives, sometimes for political reasons and sometimes for religious ones, I'm fairly certain that the massacres were not done in order to inspire vast affection for any deity.

Also, she's making it sound as if warfare didn't exist in polytheistic societies. I'm sure that the Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Greeks, Persians, Romans, Carthaginians, Norse and Celts would disagree.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 245

ZeldaQueen: Walker also seems quite certain that if women had but been involved in the formation of Christianity's sense of ethics, then those ethics would have been completely peace-loving. Because, as we've been pointing out, clearly women had no influence whatsoever in the formation of Christianity.

The Holy Inquisition was perhaps the most heinous extortion system ever devised; it served as a foundation for the church's immense wealth, since all whom it accused had their property confiscated at once.

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 153

ZeldaQueen: Nice to have it made even more blatant that her fairy tales were her shoving her warped sense of history and gender politics into the faces of children.

Conviction was essentially inevitable, due to the unrestricted use of torture.

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 154

ZeldaQueen: They read Breaking Dawn to the defendants, the horror!

Gehayi: *sighs* Look, no one, not even the Church, denies that the Inquisition happened and that people died. In 2000—eight years before this essay was written—the Pope publicly apologized for the Inquisition and the unneeded violence used. So yes, the Inquisition totally sucked. Also, people could and did suffer in ways that didn't involve execution. And that too was ghastly.

But if you're looking through, to quote the Guardian, "the documents from Vatican archives relating to the trials of Jews, Muslims, Cathars, witches, scientists and other non-Catholics in Europe between the 13th and the 19th centuries," then according to Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism, only about 1% of the 125,000 people tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain were executed.

I know. There were different Inquisitions. The Roman Inquisition. The Mexican Inquisition. But let's focus on the Spanish one for the moment.

1% of 125,000 = 1,250. Over the course of six hundred years, that's an average of 2.083 deaths of Spanish heretics attributable to the Church per year. Most of the deaths that the Church is blamed for were performed by secular tribunals.

Each victim was forced by torture to supply the names of many alleged "accomplices,"

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 155

Gehayi: The fact is that a lot of the torture instruments that we associate with the Inquisition—like iron maidens—were invented by people of later eras, more or less to make something that looked painful and horrifying. In 1793, a German philosopher called Johann Philipp Siebenkees reported that an iron maiden was used to execute a coin forger on August 14, 1515. This is one of the first mentions of an iron maiden in history…and it was a hoax. Historians now think that he invented the backstory; the San Diego Museum of Man says that previous mentions of iron maidens in 1783 and 1788 suggest that they were either tourist attractions or museum attractions.

And as for torture? Yeah, it happened. It happened in secular cases as well. It was standard practice for the time. And in both secular and ecclesiastical cases, how much torture was applied depended on the jailer AND the person questioning the prisoner.

It wasn't even always directed at the accused; when Baroque painter Artemisia Gentileschi testified against her rapist, Agostino Tassi, she "was tortured with the sibille, [or] thumbscrews, involving cords of rope tied around her hands and pulled tightly, in order to 'prove' that she was telling the truth."

Torturing anyone was cruel and unfair. It should never have happened, then or now. But Walker is presenting matters as if torture was solely a Christian prerogative—and one solely directed toward accused witches/pagans. Both of these claims are untrue.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 1,200 (suggesting two things that would mislead the reader)

so that whole villages could be wiped out by a visit from the Hounds of God (Domini canes, the Dominicans),

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 156

Zeldaqueen: Wut?

Gehayi: She has one thing right here—the Dominican Order, which was founded, as you might guess, by St. Dominic, was nicknamed the Domini Canes, which translates to Hounds or Dogs of God, for their spiritual zeal. Why she suffers from the delusion that whole villages were wiped out by rabid Dominicans, I have no idea.

and the church could take over lands and other assets virtually without limit.
Relatives of the accused even had to pay for the ropes, chains, whips, stakes and other materials of execution, and had to contribute food and clothing for the sufferers in inquisitorial dungeons, as acts (so it was written) of "Christian charity."


CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 164

Gehayi: Which was how it worked in secular prison—which was where almost all of those being tried by the Inquisition ended up. The Roman Catholic Church did not have special "church prisons"; the state, or perhaps I should say the nation, was the one in charge of penology pretty much everywhere. When someone was convicted of a capital offense, the Inquisition handed that person over to the secular authorities for execution. Things like witchcraft and heresy were treated as the spiritual equivalents of high treason; they involved disloyalty to the King of Heaven, which indicated that the guilty party couldn't possibly be loyal to an earthly king, either.

ZeldaQueen: By this point, I think it's safe to say that Walker doesn't seem aware that nations and the Inquisition worked together.



Property could be taken away from the legal heirs of the dead who were accused of heresy post-mortem. If a victim was forewarned, and committed suicide through fear of the torturers, his or her property was taken anyway, and suicide was declared a mortal sin, consigning the victim to hell forever.

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 166

ZeldaQueen: Suicide has always been considered a mortal sin, because of the idea that it's rejecting life, the most precious gift God gives. That rule wasn't founded in some elaborate conspiracy.

"So if we catch ‘em, we steal their property. If they find out and kill themselves, we steal their property and say they're in hell."

"What do we do if they shoot and kill us?"

"Eh, let's write up notes for our family to have them arrested for murder and their property seized, but leave the notes in a place our families will only think to look in the event that we die."

Canon law thus established the rule of property seizure for suicides, which remained in force throughout Europe until the late 19th century, and still contributes to today's prejudices against euthanasia or suicide even for a sufferer of unbearable pain; yet self-sacrificial suicidal feats in a war situation are commonly viewed as heroic.8

CHRISTIAN BRUTALITY: 171

Gehayi: I don't know where she got the idea that canon law, i.e., the ecclesiastical law of the Catholic Church, was a major factor in the law firms and law courts of late nineteenth-century Europe, which had quite a number of Protestant nations and which, socially and culturally, experienced a great deal of anti-Catholic feeling.

Oh, and she's supposedly quoting someone called Homer W. Smith, who published a book in 1952 called Man and His Gods. The quote allegedly comes from page 418; this is probably from the hardcover edition, as the online copy of the book ends at page 356. The word "euthanasia" appears nowhere in the online text. The phrase "canon law" is mentioned only once on page 222…and in reference to torture, not suicide. And I'm not finding any evidence that this sentence or any clauses comprising the sentence ever appeared in any work aside from Walker's speech.

INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 1,240 (four dubious factors regarding a supposed quotation)

ZeldaQueen: I'd also like to point out that there's a difference between euthanasia, suicide, and self-sacrifice in times of war. In the case of the former two, the person is requesting death to ease their suffering. For better or for worse, there is a lot of debate as to how ethical it is to allow such practices and in what conditions (and no, folks, no discussions on views of either here). Dying in war is usually seen more favorably because it's being done in the name of a greater goal—defending one's home country and so forth.

And despite Walker's constant suspicions towards the motivations of people who go to war, I'd also like to point out that people don't just define self-sacrifice in war as "run in and blow shit up." There are also people who sacrifice themselves to protect fellow soldiers or rescue injured people or protect civilians or free prisoners. You know, things that prevent death and destruction.

Oh, and if Walker seriously thinks that everyone who sees soldiers as heroes automatically supports suicidal attacks in the name of combat, she's got another thought coming. Or does she think those sobbing families you see on the news getting reports of dead loved ones are actually happy that their sons or daughters or brothers or sisters or whoever died somewhere far away?

Anthropologists and psychologists have wrestled with the problem of human violence. Some have attributed the problem to basic biology, saying that among social mammals the females generally spend their lives nurturing and teaching the young, whereas the males spend their lives fighting one another for access to females. Therefore, they say, battle is the natural testosterone-induced male role in life, while caring for others is the estrogen-induced female role.



ZeldaQueen: Yeah, fuck that with a garden hose.

Gehayi: Also? NAME NAMES, WALKER. "Anthropologists and psychologists"? That's all very nice, but WHICH ONES? And where did they say it? Because I have literally found the comments about battle and testosterone and caring and estrogen NOWHERE BUT THIS PARAGRAPH.

DOUBLE STANDARD SUNDAE: 250
INTERESTING MYTHOLOGY PLAGIARISM: 1,250 (appeal to false authority—appealing to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument)

ZeldaQueen: I'm seriously reminded of my time on the Museum of Hoaxes' forums. Every so often, we'd have idiots showing up claiming to have medical reports and "proof" that traditional medicine was a great big conspiracy or that the Illuminati was totally real or whatever, and that their evidence—which they conveniently never gave specifics on—would be published in but a few weeks' time. It never was, surprise, surprise.

But this view is far too simplistic for anything as complex as human culture. It is evident that both women and men partake of either matrist or patrist values when raised in an environment of one or the other. The picture is never uniform. Whatever the prevailing codes, there are always individuals or smaller groups who resist them and evolve other alternatives.

Gehayi: Did she just admit that there were people living in the blissfully peaceful Mother Goddess utopia who didn't feel that it WAS a utopia and resisted the established system?

ZeldaQueen: I...think she did. I'm stunned that she admitted that there are women who partake in "patrist values" and aren't all Mother Goddess-y.

Gehayi: And this is a good place to stop, because Walker is about to lessen her focus on pseudo-history about the distant past and start complaining about slightly more modern topics, like sports, TV, movies, and World War II. Her plagiarism, however, continues non-stop. No surprise there.



Violence in Religion Part I | Table of Contents | Violence in Religion Part III

(61 comments | Leave a comment)

Comments:


[User Picture]
From:scorpionspear77
Date:February 17th, 2017 03:31 am (UTC)
(Link)
The... stupidity.... AAAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!

Haaaah...

Excuse me, I'm going to go binge on Mortal Kombat X and Yandere Simulator to calm down. You two are awesome for tackling this POS. My regards to the both of you and Ket. :)
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 03:51 am (UTC)
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I don't blame you one bit. This is AMAZINGLY stupid, even for Walker.

What's Yandere Simulator?
[User Picture]
From:cal_yn
Date:February 17th, 2017 04:43 am (UTC)
(Link)
suicide was declared a mortal sin, consigning the victim to hell forever.

*facepalm*

Suicide literally means self-murder.
Murder is a mortal sin.
ERGO.

Good Brassica, Walker, this is not difficult.
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 06:45 am (UTC)
(Link)
Walker doesn't quite grasp the concept of sin (as you can see from her reaction to the idea of original sin). And she seems to feel that the idea of sin was invented so that men could control women. So she doesn't have a concept of any sins being grave offenses that are fundamentally wrong.

[User Picture]
From:idiotalchemist
Date:February 17th, 2017 04:59 am (UTC)

Parte the Firste

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*cracks knuckles and steps in the ring*

Christianity became even more patristic than its Judaic forerunner, spending its first eight centuries forcing conversions by the sword or else exterminating Europe's heathen agriculturalists (the Latin word for a farmer was pagan).

To start with, for the first three centuries of its existence (somewhere around there) Christianity was a rather small cult and more a small offshoot of Judaism than its own thing. The Romans saw them (and most other monotheistic religions to be honest) as creepy. First off (the first few ones will apply equally to the Roman view of Judaism as well), due to their monotheistic nature they could not, by the very tenets of their faith, worship the state gods (namely Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva) and certainly did not see the deified emperors and heroes as divine. This made them seem disloyal to Rome and therefore not to be trusted. Second, they didn't have any depictions of God (no graven images and all that). When Roman soldiers first entered the Hebrew Temple to see what God they worshipped, they were spooked as all fuck when there were no images whatsoever. No statues, no mosaics, no nothin'. Moving on to Christian-specific stuff, there were a lot of rumors flying around about Christianity since it was an (oftentimes literally) underground cult. The Nativity story and the Communion got mixed up and a lot of people thought that Christians engaged in child sacrifice followed by blood drinking and cannibalism of said child. Because they called each other "brother" and "sister" regardless of actual relation, there were rumors that they engaged in incest. There were a lot of weird little theories like this floating about. This is why it took over three hundred years to not be illegal in Rome.

Also, "paganus" is Roman soldier slang for a rustic person. Nowadays maybe we'd say "bumpkin" or "yokel." The connotation of "fool" was there from the beginning. My apologies to pagans.

There's an interesting little nod-back to this fact in The (ORIGINAL) Wicker Man, where Lord Summerisle (Christopher Lee in his favorite movie role) is called a pagan by the main character and replies, "A heathen, considerably, but not, I hope, an unenlightened one."

He's a lord, dammit, not some backwoods hick.

Gehayi: *double-checks* Oh, wait. Walker gave the wrong date, which threw me off. She's talking about the Theodosius, who took the throne after Emperor Constantine. The Edict of Theodosius, which was issued on February 27, 380 (or possibly 381), commanded everyone to be a Christian—Theodosius's kind of Christian. And this led to many bloody persecutions. It was an asshole move all around.

A Roman Emperor being an asshole?! What a shock!

Seriously, starting with Tiberius, every Roman Emperor had to engage in at least a little dickbaggery as practically a requirement of the position. Even Augustus himself could be a right dick.

New canon laws also took away women's property rights, subjected children to the absolute rule of fathers with the power of life and death, encouraged frequent beatings of offspring and wives through exhortations from the pulpit,

You all expand on this right afterwords, but Walker really didn't know what a paterfamilias was, did she? Roman fathers had a stranglehold on their families. Greek fathers held a stranglehold on their families! Why do you think there are so many Greek and Roman legends about infants being left in the open to die of exposure with the parents never receiving any judgement for doing so? It's because it was a perfectly accepted practice!

and insisted on the inherent sinfulness of sexual activities, including even marital relations.

I have never heard of that. Any basis, or is Walker pulling this out of her ass?
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 09:43 am (UTC)

Re: Parte the Firste

(Link)
To start with, for the first three centuries of its existence (somewhere around there) Christianity was a rather small cult and more a small offshoot of Judaism than its own thing. The Romans saw them (and most other monotheistic religions to be honest) as creepy. First off (the first few ones will apply equally to the Roman view of Judaism as well), due to their monotheistic nature they could not, by the very tenets of their faith, worship the state gods (namely Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva) and certainly did not see the deified emperors and heroes as divine. This made them seem disloyal to Rome and therefore not to be trusted. Second, they didn't have any depictions of God (no graven images and all that). When Roman soldiers first entered the Hebrew Temple to see what God they worshipped, they were spooked as all fuck when there were no images whatsoever. No statues, no mosaics, no nothin'. Moving on to Christian-specific stuff, there were a lot of rumors flying around about Christianity since it was an (oftentimes literally) underground cult. The Nativity story and the Communion got mixed up and a lot of people thought that Christians engaged in child sacrifice followed by blood drinking and cannibalism of said child. Because they called each other "brother" and "sister" regardless of actual relation, there were rumors that they engaged in incest. There were a lot of weird little theories like this floating about. This is why it took over three hundred years to not be illegal in Rome.

All true, and therefore of no interest to Walker whatsoever. She seems to believe that Christianity started, not as an anthill, but as Mount Everest.

Also, "paganus" is Roman soldier slang for a rustic person. Nowadays maybe we'd say "bumpkin" or "yokel." The connotation of "fool" was there from the beginning. My apologies to pagans.

There's an interesting little nod-back to this fact in The (ORIGINAL) Wicker Man, where Lord Summerisle (Christopher Lee in his favorite movie role) is called a pagan by the main character and replies, "A heathen, considerably, but not, I hope, an unenlightened one."

He's a lord, dammit, not some backwoods hick.


Hah! I like that example.

A Roman Emperor being an asshole?! What a shock!

Seriously, starting with Tiberius, every Roman Emperor had to engage in at least a little dickbaggery as practically a requirement of the position. Even Augustus himself could be a right dick.


True enough.

You all expand on this right afterwords, but Walker really didn't know what a paterfamilias was, did she? Roman fathers had a stranglehold on their families. Greek fathers held a stranglehold on their families! Why do you think there are so many Greek and Roman legends about infants being left in the open to die of exposure with the parents never receiving any judgement for doing so? It's because it was a perfectly accepted practice!

She really does not. She appears to believe that this level of parental authority was a Christian innovation.

and insisted on the inherent sinfulness of sexual activities, including even marital relations.

I have never heard of that. Any basis, or is Walker pulling this out of her ass?

So far as I know, she's pulling it out of her ass.
[User Picture]
From:idiotalchemist
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:00 am (UTC)

Parte the Seconde

(Link)
In other words, Jerome wasn't saying that Christians had to regard the immediate world as poisonous if it pertained to sex. He was giving advice to a young widow on proper diet—and on what foods would NOT act as aphrodisiacs.

And wow, was reading a clinical dietary plan written by a saint a surreal experience. I half-expected him to tell the widow to make sure to have an exercise schedule to fit her new diet. (Be sure to eat plenty of protein if you want to build muscle, and don't forget to keep hydrated during cardio.)

"because of its natural nastiness."

To be fair, it is essentially combining various bodily parts with orifices that excrete various substances and moving them around against each other until hopefully a physiological reaction involving fluids from one or more of the orifices occurs.

Thas' romantic.

Although this was written by Kramer and he was...well, let's just say there was a reason his "coauthor" hated his guts.

Gehayi: *grimaces* Dear God, I hate that attitude. It sounds so...pro-pedophilia. It's creepy.

ZeldaQueen: *darkly* But that's a rant for Amazon.


Oh hell, is it going to go all MZB on us? Because I'm still trudging my way through the dark abyss that is Mists of Avalon, I can't take much more!

And heck, plenty of kids love stories about monsters! That's why there are so many monster movies and books, even directed at children! In fact, in some ways, kids can handle horror a lot better than adults. Case in point, just look at half of the Disney villains.

“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” ― G.K. Chesterton

ZeldaQueen: Did...Walker seriously just suggest that rape can be blamed on sexual repression?!

Gehayi: No, I think she said it outright.


*blink* Whaaaa

Rape does not happen because of "repression", regardless what all of the fuckbags who blame misogynistic and sexual violence on the perpetrator "not being able to get any" might say! It happens because some barely human scumbag thinks that another human being is only a sexual object!

Again, Rome completely disproves her! Ancient Romans were HARDLY repressed and yet they still committed sexual violence on a scale we can barely comprehend!

Gehayi: Walker is quoting herself again...and badly. I cannot determine from the above statement whether Walker is talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church, or one of the numerous Protestant ones--and if she is talking about a Protestant church, which sect. Nor is there any clue as to what founders she's citing, or the sources of these alleged quotes.

Now, now. Research, citing your sources, and making sure that your sources are reliable are just tools of the patriarchy! True wisdom comes from out of your ass womanly intuition!

When women are so put down as to be forbidden any part in defining the moral code, it seems that violence soon becomes institutionalized.

Which is why when women were in charge of the countries, it was all peace all the time! Ignoring all the fighting and persecution that went on during Mary I's reign. And her sister Elizabeth's. And the fighting led by Caterina Sforza. And the troops led by Joan of Arc. And almost everything Catherine de'Medici (supposedly) did. And...
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 09:35 am (UTC)

Re: Parte the Seconde

(Link)
And wow, was reading a clinical dietary plan written by a saint a surreal experience. I half-expected him to tell the widow to make sure to have an exercise schedule to fit her new diet. (Be sure to eat plenty of protein if you want to build muscle, and don't forget to keep hydrated during cardio.)

*laughs* Actually, he tells her next to pray and read as well as diet and to use her money to help the poor.

Although this was written by Kramer and he was...well, let's just say there was a reason his "coauthor" hated his guts.

Oh, yeah. With good reason.

Oh hell, is it going to go all MZB on us? Because I'm still trudging my way through the dark abyss that is Mists of Avalon, I can't take much more!

There are passages that sound, to my ears at least, as if she was influenced by MZB.

Rape does not happen because of "repression", regardless what all of the fuckbags who blame misogynistic and sexual violence on the perpetrator "not being able to get any" might say! It happens because some barely human scumbag thinks that another human being is only a sexual object!

Case in point. Walker spends a great deal of time in Amazon demonstrating that she does not grasp the concept of consent--especially as it relates to same-sex or female-on-male rape.

Now, now. Research, citing your sources, and making sure that your sources are reliable are just tools of the patriarchy! True wisdom comes from out of your ass womanly intuition!

That's pretty much the attitude, to be honest.

Which is why when women were in charge of the countries, it was all peace all the time! Ignoring all the fighting and persecution that went on during Mary I's reign. And her sister Elizabeth's. And the fighting led by Caterina Sforza. And the troops led by Joan of Arc. And almost everything Catherine de'Medici (supposedly) did. And...

Wanna hear what she had to say about Joan of Arc?

Pucelle

"The Maid," French title of any woman who impersonated the Virgin Goddess of the druidic fairy-religion; a feminine form of Puck (see Pooka; Bogey). It was the title of Joan of Arc, an indication that her faith was basically non-Christian. British heathens called Maid Marian the pucelle or Maiden of the Coven. Her consort was Robin Hood or Robin Goodfellow, known as the god of witches (see Robin). 1


One of the charges that sent Joan of Arc to the stake was that she "adored the
Fairies and did them reverence."


Cutting off her hair was one of the crimes for which Joan of Arc was condemned to the fire. The count read: "This woman is apostate, for the hair which God gave
her for a veil she has untimely cut off."


So...yeah. According to Walker, Joan of Arc was NOT a devout Catholic who had visions of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Margaret, and St. Catherine of Alexandria; she was a druidic priestess who worshipped fairies.
[User Picture]
From:idiotalchemist
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:00 am (UTC)

Parte the Thirde

(Link)
and the church could take over lands and other assets virtually without limit.

What's the use of all that land if there's no one to work it? Even if we're assuming they were super-villain evil, it makes no sense!

Anthropologists and psychologists have wrestled with the problem of human violence. Some have attributed the problem to basic biology, saying that among social mammals the females generally spend their lives nurturing and teaching the young, whereas the males spend their lives fighting one another for access to females. Therefore, they say, battle is the natural testosterone-induced male role in life, while caring for others is the estrogen-induced female role.

And any woman who has ever fought, been furiously enraged, or simply has never felt the drive to be nurturing is groaning and flipping off their screens.

Gehayi: And this is a good place to stop, because Walker is about to lessen her focus on pseudo-history about the distant past and start complaining about slightly more modern topics, like sports, TV, movies, and World War II. Her plagiarism, however, continues non-stop. No surprise there.

Ooh, goody. Ranting about the damn kids today. Will there be any comparing of bad choices in footwear to forcible footbinding, or is that too subtle now?
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 09:00 am (UTC)

Re: Parte the Thirde

(Link)
and the church could take over lands and other assets virtually without limit.

What's the use of all that land if there's no one to work it? Even if we're assuming they were super-villain evil, it makes no sense!

Sense? What is this "sense" thing that you speak of?

battle is the natural testosterone-induced male role in life, while caring for others is the estrogen-induced female role.

And any woman who has ever fought, been furiously enraged, or simply has never felt the drive to be nurturing is groaning and flipping off their screens.

Totally. The annoying thing is that if anyone told HER that biology was destiny, I think she would be hugely insulted.

Ooh, goody. Ranting about the damn kids today.

Pretty much, yeah.

Will there be any comparing of bad choices in footwear to forcible footbinding, or is that too subtle now?

No, but there's a LOT of complaining about TV and movies. A LOT.
[User Picture]
From:angevin2
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:01 am (UTC)
(Link)
Are we sure that wasn't scribbled in by Phillip J. Fry during some time travel shenanigans?

He did do the nasty in the past-y!

Also Walker's stupidity never ceases to boggle my mind.

[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 07:40 am (UTC)
(Link)
Walker's stupidity never ceases to boggle my mind.

You and me both.
[User Picture]
From:albion_witch
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:14 am (UTC)
(Link)
Oh, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. She's gonna deny that the Holocaust happened in the next bit, isn't she?

Hell, I wouldn't surprised if she claims that it was a plot concocted by The Vatican.

Edited at 2017-02-17 05:19 am (UTC)
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 07:40 am (UTC)
(Link)
No, she doesn't deny that the Holocaust happened. She does, however, have a bizarre notion as to its cause (which makes minus googolplex sense any way that you look at it). (Spoilers: it's down to Christianity again. Only somehow her accusations make even less sense than before.)
[User Picture]
From:eternalfay
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:17 am (UTC)
(Link)
St. Augustine maintained that original sin is transmitted through all generations by means of sex,

Uh, considering everyone but the Son of God is conceived via sexual activity, how else would original sin be transmitted?

The innocent sensuality of children

Holy Hell, that sounds like something straight out of the NAMBLA guide book.

A new holiday was devised, called Childermass, or Holy Innocents Day, when all children were to be whipped to make them remember the story of King Herod.

Fucking what?! What's considered child abuse may have changed over the years, but that's a pretty extreme assertion to make without any reliable sources.

During Europe's many wars, crusades, and persecutions, as Susan Brownmiller demonstrated in her book, Against Our Will, rape was considered a rightful reward of the warrior.

Yeah, rape happens in war. It sucks, but it didn't start with Christianity or Judaism. And I can't help but notice Walker leaving out that some of the situations she describes see a disproportionate number of men being raped. But who cares about them; they're just men.

has the wild man Enkidu seduced by a temple prostitute named Shamhat...who, I might add, was portrayed positively.

If I remember right, she was a priestess of Inanna, you know, the goddess of sexuality. If anything, celibacy would have been much stranger given who Shamhat's patron goddess was.

Also, she's making it sound as if warfare didn't exist in polytheistic societies. I'm sure that the Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, Greeks, Persians, Romans, Carthaginians, Norse and Celts would disagree.

And some of them had gruesome practices that Christian missionaries wanted to put a stop to. Word of advice, don't google a "blood eagle" unless you have a very strong stomach.

yet self-sacrificial suicidal feats in a war situation are commonly viewed as heroic.

Wait, I thought self-sacrifice was only bad when women did it. Make up your mind, Walker.

But this view is far too simplistic for anything as complex as human culture.

Walker is lecturing us about people oversimplifying the complexities of human culture!?



start complaining about slightly more modern topics, like sports, TV, movies, and World War II.

Considering Walker's previous anti-Semitism and her attempts to one-up the Jewish death count of the Holocaust, that worries me.
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 07:35 am (UTC)
(Link)
Uh, considering everyone but the Son of God is conceived via sexual activity, how else would original sin be transmitted?

She doesn't quite grasp that original sin is inborn. Her reaction is more "St. Augustine said that sex is bad, so he thought that everything associated with sex is bad, including babies."

The innocent sensuality of children

Holy Hell, that sounds like something straight out of the NAMBLA guide book.

Tell me about it. It makes me sick to my stomach.

A new holiday was devised, called Childermass, or Holy Innocents Day, when all children were to be whipped to make them remember the story of King Herod.

Fucking what?! What's considered child abuse may have changed over the years, but that's a pretty extreme assertion to make without any reliable sources.

Without any sources at all, in fact.

Yeah, rape happens in war. It sucks, but it didn't start with Christianity or Judaism. And I can't help but notice Walker leaving out that some of the situations she describes see a disproportionate number of men being raped. But who cares about them; they're just men.

She honestly doesn't seem to have any concept that men can be raped. This may be tied to an old legal notion that rape had to be penetrative (only vaginal, in other words, not anal or oral). Since rape had to be vaginal, then under law, men couldn't be raped.

Now, most states have advanced from this antique way of thinking (though the Justice Department, as of a few years ago, still wasn't counting male rape victims). But not all people have. Walker certainly has not.

If I remember right, she was a priestess of Inanna, you know, the goddess of sexuality. If anything, celibacy would have been much stranger given who Shamhat's patron goddess was.

It sure would!

And some of them had gruesome practices that Christian missionaries wanted to put a stop to. Word of advice, don't google a "blood eagle" unless you have a very strong stomach.

Walker takes the odd position that all pagans were gentle, goddess-worshipping souls and that any reports of gruesome or gory behavior was made up centuries later by Christian monks. *rolls her eyes*

Wait, I thought self-sacrifice was only bad when women did it. Make up your mind, Walker.

Self-sacrifice in war, so far as I can tell, is bad because war convinces men to die violently and to kill others violently while convincing them that they are doing something noble. As far as Walker is concerned, self-sacrifice in war is bad because it makes war look good.

Walker is lecturing us about people oversimplifying the complexities of human culture!?

OH, THE IRONY.

Considering Walker's previous anti-Semitism and her attempts to one-up the Jewish death count of the Holocaust, that worries me.

Well, she doesn't deny that the Holocaust happened. But she does come up with a...unique...notion as to its cause--because of course there's only one cause--which is bizarre as hell.
[User Picture]
From:Heather McCrillis
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:30 am (UTC)
(Link)
So when mothers protect their young, are they giving in to society's ingrained male violence?
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 07:10 am (UTC)
(Link)
I honestly don't know. She'd probably blame the patriarchy and Christianity for child abuse, though, and swear that no woman had ever abused her child back in Mother Goddess-Land.
[User Picture]
From:krazeekristi
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:41 am (UTC)
(Link)
The stupid it BUUUUUUUURNS!!!!
Gah this is gonna take one epic killing spree in Yandere Simulator to sort myself out.
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 06:46 am (UTC)
(Link)
Good luck. That's all I can say.
[User Picture]
From:babyrodent
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:55 am (UTC)
(Link)
I know this is only Part II, but I have only this in response to this essay so far:

[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 06:46 am (UTC)
(Link)
I am so with Miss Piggy on this that you would not believe it.
From:jaydude2
Date:February 17th, 2017 09:35 am (UTC)
(Link)
First off, it's good to see you back on here, Gehayi, considering everything that's happened recently with you.

Walker also seems quite certain that if women had but been involved in the formation of Christianity's sense of ethics, then those ethics would have been completely peace-loving. Because, as we've been pointing out, clearly women had no influence whatsoever in the formation of Christianity.

You know, this seems as good a time as any to wonder what Walker would think of Dragon Age's Chantry. Would she be happy to see a religious organisation largely managed by women? Or angry that said religion is based off of Christianity and/or doesn't do a perfect job?

Also, out of curiosity, do you have any idea what you're going to spork next, once you're done with Walker's nonsense?
[User Picture]
From:nayaranightroo
Date:February 17th, 2017 11:41 am (UTC)
(Link)
And in Spain—and possibly other areas heavily influenced by Spain, I don't know—Holy Innocents Day is a day of pranks and mock battles. (...) Whether children were beaten on that day, I don't know.
We do celebrate the Holy Innocents Day in Spain (mostly in the country, tho; cities aren't big on this particular celebration), and so do most countries of South America. You're completely right in that it's all games and pranks; it's kind of like April Fool's Day.
The thing about the Holy Innocents Day is that, in the Middle Ages, it was supposed to be about mourning the children Herod killed in Jesus' place, but then it got mixed up with a festivity called "Fiesta de los Locos", and it became all about having fun and pranking people (on the thought that those people were "innocent like children").
What I've definitely never heard about is that bit about beating children. Seriously. Not even in the Middle Ages, and most certainly not now; I've even researched for a good while and I couldn't find anything mentioning it, or nothing in Spanish, at least, so New Age English writers must have made it up.

Gehayi: (...)While there have been occasional Popes who frequented brothels, the Borgias were not typical.
Plus, most Christian countries were really pissed off at the Borgia Pope for that (among other things), and at the ones that came behind him and mimicked his behaviour. That's what set Martin Luther off in the first place.

Gehayi: While I admit that Christian nations have colonized pretty much everywhere and have massacred natives, sometimes for political reasons and sometimes for religious ones, I'm fairly certain that the massacres were not done in order to inspire vast affection for any deity.
They really weren't, that I know of. I mean, the Catholic Monarchs were happy colonizing America for the sake of getting territory, prestige, new products to sell, and silver.
And while Queen Isabel did get pretty invested in converting the natives, she was very insistent on it being done respectfully and forbade the colonizers to hurt natives. Many people didn't give a damn, of course, like Colon himself, but she actually punished him for that (after friar Bartolomé de las Casas, a fierce protector of the natives, told her what was going on). And when natives got enslaved or killed, it wasn't because of religion, it was because colonizers exploited them in order to increase production.
Which is not to say Christian nations, and the Hispanic Monarchy in particular, weren't freakin' awful, but they didn't precisely "massacre natives to teach them to love the correct god". They usually weren't that invested.

ZeldaQueen: Walker also seems quite certain that if women had but been involved in the formation of Christianity's sense of ethics, then those ethics would have been completely peace-loving. Because, as we've been pointing out, clearly women had no influence whatsoever in the formation of Christianity.
I can't help but lol. I mean, back to Queen Isabel, she was a hardcore and powerful defensor of Christianity and her ethics most definitely weren't peace-loving, refusal to kill natives and all. That woman really was terrible (and terrifying).

Canon law thus established the rule of property seizure for suicides, which remained in force throughout Europe until the late 19th century, and still contributes to today's prejudices against euthanasia or suicide even for a sufferer of unbearable pain; yet self-sacrificial suicidal feats in a war situation are commonly viewed as heroic.
We interrupt this load of Christian-hating bullshit to offer Walker's views on euthanasia and suicide, because why not. NO ONE CARES. I FORGOT THE POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE ABOUT HALF AN ESSAY AGO. GET ON WITH IT.

Gehayi: And this is a good place to stop, because Walker is about to lessen her focus on pseudo-history about the distant past and start complaining about slightly more modern topics, like sports, TV, movies, and World War II.
HOW ARE WE NOT FINISHED? HASN'T THIS BEEN ENOUGH? IS THERE NO MERCY IN THE WORLD? And is there anything Walker doesn't complain about? Anything at all, apart from her Sparkly Paganism? (Also, Walker talking about World War II? I don't want to touch that with a teen foot pole.)
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 06:36 pm (UTC)
(Link)
We do celebrate the Holy Innocents Day in Spain (mostly in the country, tho; cities aren't big on this particular celebration), and so do most countries of South America. You're completely right in that it's all games and pranks; it's kind of like April Fool's Day.

The thing about the Holy Innocents Day is that, in the Middle Ages, it was supposed to be about mourning the children Herod killed in Jesus' place, but then it got mixed up with a festivity called "Fiesta de los Locos", and it became all about having fun and pranking people (on the thought that those people were "innocent like children").


Thank you so much for confirming this!

What I've definitely never heard about is that bit about beating children. Seriously. Not even in the Middle Ages, and most certainly not now; I've even researched for a good while and I couldn't find anything mentioning it, or nothing in Spanish, at least, so New Age English writers must have made it up.

That's my personal suspicion as well. I just can't prove that they made it up.

Plus, most Christian countries were really pissed off at the Borgia Pope for that (among other things), and at the ones that came behind him and mimicked his behaviour. That's what set Martin Luther off in the first place.

True enough. There really were a lot of things that needed improvement.

Gehayi: While I admit that Christian nations have colonized pretty much everywhere and have massacred natives, sometimes for political reasons and sometimes for religious ones, I'm fairly certain that the massacres were not done in order to inspire vast affection for any deity.

They really weren't, that I know of. I mean, the Catholic Monarchs were happy colonizing America for the sake of getting territory, prestige, new products to sell, and silver.

And while Queen Isabel did get pretty invested in converting the natives, she was very insistent on it being done respectfully and forbade the colonizers to hurt natives. Many people didn't give a damn, of course, like Colon himself, but she actually punished him for that (after friar Bartolomé de las Casas, a fierce protector of the natives, told her what was going on). And when natives got enslaved or killed, it wasn't because of religion, it was because colonizers exploited them in order to increase production.

Which is not to say Christian nations, and the Hispanic Monarchy in particular, weren't freakin' awful, but they didn't precisely "massacre natives to teach them to love the correct god". They usually weren't that invested.


I never heard of Bartolomé de las Casas before. And I am sad about that.

I can't help but lol. I mean, back to Queen Isabel, she was a hardcore and powerful defensor of Christianity and her ethics most definitely weren't peace-loving, refusal to kill natives and all. That woman really was terrible (and terrifying).

I would love to introduce Walker to all of these women warriors.

We interrupt this load of Christian-hating bullshit to offer Walker's views on euthanasia and suicide, because why not. NO ONE CARES. I FORGOT THE POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE ABOUT HALF AN ESSAY AGO. GET ON WITH IT.

Walker has a point? I just think of her as a proto-Internet troll.

HOW ARE WE NOT FINISHED? HASN'T THIS BEEN ENOUGH? IS THERE NO MERCY IN THE WORLD?

No. No, there is not.

And is there anything Walker doesn't complain about? Anything at all, apart from her Sparkly Paganism?

Not that I've seen.

(Also, Walker talking about World War II? I don't want to touch that with a teen foot pole.)

To be fair, she spends much more time complaining about TV and movies. But Zelda will tear her to shreds for what she DOES say.
[User Picture]
From:kawatche
Date:February 17th, 2017 02:00 pm (UTC)
(Link)
vAnthropologists and psychologists have wrestled with the problem of human violence. Some have attributed the problem to basic biology, saying that among social mammals the females generally spend their lives nurturing and teaching the young, whereas the males spend their lives fighting one another for access to females. Therefore, they say, battle is the natural testosterone-induced male role in life, while caring for others is the estrogen-induced female role.

Hippolyta, would you please put down your bow and take up that infant and go... weave... like a good little wimmens? You're disturbing Walker's nonsense with your existence.

Now, the Church - or rather, Christians - have done a lot of messed up shit in the name of their god. But so has 99% of all other religious people across history as well, so I don't really understand Walker's... obsession with pinning everything on them. And seeing as Christianity has incorporated a great deal from other religions, faiths, gods and customs, you'd think she would start looking into *where* a custom/practice comes from first, instead of waving her nutty finger at the Church.
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 06:01 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Hippolyta, would you please put down your bow and take up that infant and go... weave... like a good little wimmens? You're disturbing Walker's nonsense with your existence.

You're going to love her portrayal of Amazon society in Amazon. It is the most barren dystopia you can imagine.

Now, the Church - or rather, Christians - have done a lot of messed up shit in the name of their god. But so has 99% of all other religious people across history as well, so I don't really understand Walker's... obsession with pinning everything on them. And seeing as Christianity has incorporated a great deal from other religions, faiths, gods and customs, you'd think she would start looking into *where* a custom/practice comes from first, instead of waving her nutty finger at the Church.

As near as we can figure, Walker is still reacting to a fundamentalist Baptist upbringing. She presumes that anything she disliked or disagreed with which existed within that one sect is universal to Christianity. She also has a hatred for and ignorance about Catholicism coupled with contemptible (and shockingly blatant) anti-Semitism. All of this ignorant loathing seems to fuse into her blaming Judaism, Roman Catholicism, and Christianity as a whole for pretty much everything that is wrong with the world. This is very convenient for her; it allows her to rant as much as she wants about religions and groups that she dislikes while letting her feel smart and virtuous.

So she doesn't care where practices come from, and she certainly doesn't care about research or truth. She just wants to rant and to present herself as wronged, because MONOTHEISM.
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From:akilah12902
Date:February 17th, 2017 03:20 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Walker is one of those people who is never going to believe anything anyone says that is against her views...
The confirmation bias! It BURNS!
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:44 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Walker is one of those people who is never going to believe anything anyone says that is against her views...The confirmation bias! It BURNS!

Not only is she never going to believe anything that is contrary to her views, despite how much evidence there is for it, she's also always going to be offended that most people don't accept what she has to say as gospel truth. (Evidence? Why would anyone want any stinking evidence?)

We're going to get into the reasons for this angrily entitled attitude more in Amazon.
[User Picture]
From:ranguvar42
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:16 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Why do I have the feeling Walker would think that the Bishop of Bath and Wells from Blackadder is a legit portrayal?




I am going through a very difficult time right now(my grandmother suffered a stroke so severe that she was left braindead and is now in hospice), and my faith is getting me through. So Walker, I say this with as much vehemence as I can muster.

FUCK. YOU.
[User Picture]
From:gehayi
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:36 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Why do I have the feeling Walker would think that the Bishop of Bath and Wells from Blackadder is a legit portrayal?

Knowing Walker? Yeah. She'd probably say that was an unexaggerated and accurate portrayal. She might know that it was intended to be funny, but I think she'd accept it as valid.

I am going through a very difficult time right now(my grandmother suffered a stroke so severe that she was left braindead and is now in hospice), and my faith is getting me through. So Walker, I say this with as much vehemence as I can muster.

FUCK. YOU.


I am so, so very sorry that you're going through that awfulness. That's terrible. And I'm glad that your faith is helping.
[User Picture]
From:soldiersregret
Date:February 17th, 2017 05:36 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Get well soon, Ket Makura.
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From:yotsubadances5
Date:February 17th, 2017 07:53 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Walker talking about "the general nastiness" made me think of 'The Never Ending story 3'. "WE MUST NOT GIVE IN TO... THE NASTY!". And the 3 made me think it was a ":3" emoticon.

Innocent sensuality of children. That's really creepy, Walker.

In the subject of scaring kids, I went to a day-camp during the summer when I was about eight and they told us stories about Bloody Mary. It worked too well - I was terrified of bathrooms for years. Though they did tell us a story about a girl who died in the pool where they held the camp; but she would appear after 2 pm and that's when they would do the swimming classes and have everyone playing around leave, so.
From:tripodeca113
Date:February 17th, 2017 11:36 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Walker you could have made this about actual things people have used Christianity to justify doing. I feel you could probably find some dick who used the Christian faith as an excuse to do something terrible, and sure she'd probably use this as the view point of all Christians, but at least it wouldn't be made up garbage.
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From:elisserion
Date:February 18th, 2017 12:55 am (UTC)
(Link)
"Rabid Dominicans." Thank you for that perfect phrasing.

Now I'm trying to picture the friars I've known massacring a village. I can sort of picture it as a dramatic scene in a movie. A whole bunch of elderly men storming forward very very slowly, Father Don's toupee blowing in the wind...
From:botanypaladin
Date:February 18th, 2017 07:28 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Good Lord, if I wanted to deal with this kind of bullcrap i would stay back on Tumblr.

I really don't want know, ok may be a little, what Walker thinks of women, real or fictional, who are in the military.

Seriously is there anyone real that she likes?
[User Picture]
From:zelda_queen
Date:February 18th, 2017 08:10 pm (UTC)
(Link)
"I really don't want know, ok may be a little, what Walker thinks of women, real or fictional, who are in the military."

I have a feeling that like with trans women or women who are sterile/choose to not have children, Walker is (or pretending to be) blissfully unaware of their existence. She seems to approve of women being fighters against evil patriarchal menz, but only if there is instigation. Other than that, she seems to take it as a given that women want to simply live quiet, peaceful and boring, going by "Amazon" lives.

"Seriously is there anyone real that she likes?"

Her fans? *shrugs* Not much comes to mind, really.
[User Picture]
From:scribal_goddess
Date:February 19th, 2017 04:55 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Walker's still talking? Poor us.

*Falls over laughing at the idea of Original Sin as an STD.* Okay, Walker. I know that people spent most of antiquity passing around these things because there wasn't a lot of antibiotics available (and I can think of a few off the top of my head that are milder and have inactive periods, so they would seem cured by any random thing you did about them,) but Walker, you're a grown woman of the 20th century.

Also... pretty sure that a good 50% of even modern urban legends have a secondary purpose of preventing kids from doing mind-bendingly stupid things. I specifically remember hearing about a vengeful ghost that lurked around a specific beach in my hometown, to drown people. (Because they wanted company or something?) That beach has excessively deadly undertow, especially compared with nearby areas of lake Michigan, so it not only seemed reasonable, since every few years you'd hear about someone diving there, it served the purpose of letting young people know that if you swam out to rescue someone in that current you would probably also die.

And then...

*Micro explosions across the entire internet*

Walker, kindly retreat to your corner and think long and hard about what you just said! Look, we knew that she does not understand consent (see: all her fairy tales,) but what the hell is this "if everyone was more actively sexual and we had more sex no one would get raped?" Walker. Not. How. It. Works. What she's promoting is basically saying that if the world were an environment where saying no was not an option, or not a common option, we'd solve all our problems... by not calling it rape, I suppose. *Goes looking for something to stab.*

Back to something that doesn't make my hair jump off my head, the Egyptians were awfully fond of recording glorious victories, especially in funerary art... even when they didn't happen. Because if you wrote it down it would happen again, so you wouldn't record your Pharoh loosing. That made our class on the Assyrians fun, because the records were in direct conflict as to who one during some of those famous battles.

Also, as someone who has a Dominican nun for a relative, the worst thing they're likely to do to you, modern era, is make you sit through Easter Mass. They didn't, according to my mom, necessarily make good science teachers in the 70's, but they did a lot of charity work.

Also, Walker needs to study herself some biology, because violence is not exclusive to males in the animal kingdom! Take hyenas, for example. Boxing crabs steal anemones from each other and then, if the stealer and stealee are of different sexes, mate afterwards - no matter which crab stole the anemone. Not to mention that testosterone and estrogen, though one is prevalent in males of mammal species, and one in females, is not exclusive to one sex or the other and not found in the other.

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